Iraq prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

Wow, I think this topic needs a lot of balance. For the Americans, this is a serious problem within the military that can't be easily dismissed and can never be justified (regardless of what other's have done to US soldiers or to the Iraqi people). I know that it was only a handful of people but it's apparently been going on for some time and the powers-that-be didn't seem to act very quickly to end it. The perception throughout the world is also something that we need to recognize, the world is too connected to dismiss negative global reaction to our troops behavior, no matter how insignificant it seems in the broader sense.

For the non-Americans, it is important to understand the complexity of controlling hundreds of thousand of troops. I don't condone anything that was done to these prisoners, whether it was for sport or intelligence gathering. Regardless of the rules of war (Geneva convention) we as a nation should be working very diligently towards exceeding all expectations and establishing a minimum standard that all other nations would choose to live by given the same circumstances, and in that respect, we are failing miserably. There shouldn't be a single incident of abuse, torture, rape, murder, humilation, etc. by any American troop ever, and I would guess that this is the goal of most of the military leaders regardless of how difficult that task is. As well, the vast majority of Americans and the vast majority of American troops are decent, kind, considerate and giving people. The vast majority of Americans are absolutely appalled by the actions of these particular soldiers and we demand accountability for those that perpetrated these acts and the people who allowed it to happen. There are those in this country who try to blow it off as justified or ok in the context of war, but most of us don't believe that and we don't want to see it happen to anyone ever again. If we can affect change to insure that, we will.

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Anon9 · Joined: 08 May 2004 Posts: 1

ABU GHRAIB HYPOCRISY

First let me say that these crimes must be punished. Everyone is shocked and disgusted by this psychological torture and humiliation, which will effect the victims for the rest of their lives.

But the International Community's reaction is riddled with hypocrisy:

1. Bad treatment for US troops?

It is conventional wisdom among pundits that ill-treatment by a few US troops will result in worse treatment against American POWs. Really?

In the past, US POWS and even civilians have hardly been treated according to the Geneva Conventions. Daniel Pearl beheaded, the Fallujah four mutilated and burned, Jessica Lynch raped come to mind. Tiger cages and torture in Vietnam, forced death marches and executions during WWII. Perhaps the pundits could tell me of a conflict where American POWs were protected?

The threat of bad treatment for POWs might have more effect if it hadn't already happened.

2. Torture=bad, Torture-Killing=Good?

How did the world respond when 4 civilians were tortured, mutilated, burned, shot, executed, their bodies parts burned, stepped on, dragged and hung from bridges? In much of the press, it was hardly denounced, and actually used as more evidence of either American failure or blame was cast on the non-combatant civilian workers as being "spieds" or "mercenaries".

Clearly a few humiliating sexual poses would be preferable to mutilation-death-desecration. Apparently rape, torture, mutilation and execution of Americans POWs and even civilians is okay....

3. Demand for apologies

Here's the game:

-If you only apologize, Iraqis will forgive you

-Bush and others apologize

-Declare these apologies invalid for some reason -- they were too indirect, they were personal statements, etc.

-The apology provokes no forgiveness, only shrill denunciations about trying to sneak out of responsibility. A Saudi paper screamed "Killers should apologize!"

4. War=Bad, Terror=Good?

This is a part of a larger pattern of hypocrisy: War is "evil", terror is good. War by nations against nations is wrong. Civil war and insurgency are "heroic". Thus, nations which fight wars must be harangued for real and imagined war-crimes, while their insurgent, terrorist counterparts can extermination civilians, rape, torture and mutilate with impunity---after all, they are not governments, so how can they be held responsible.

Thus, the rape of Jessica Lynch and female soldiers in the first Gulf War are laughed off. Thus, executions of American civilians like Daniel Pearl and an elderly wheel-chair bound Achille Lauro passenger is never called a war crime--the terrorists act with impunity. Only wars are protested; Terrorist atrocities and war crimes are laughed off, ignored, or worse, secretly sympathized and justified.

5. Get ready for more hypocrisy

Some Iraqis despite official apologies and even compensation ,and despite experts from the Arab media who claimed that “if only Bush would apologize” the Iraqis will forgive you, radicals in Iraq and elsewhere will no doubt seek to get “Revenge”. When American POWS are tortured and executed what can we expect? Loud, shrill denunciations by the world’s press?? I doubt it. More likely are apologetics, excuse-making, justifications, and even glee. Such is the craven nature of the “World Community”.

HKRockChick · No More Peas! Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 1513

NRK, I hear what you are saying, and anon9 too. I agree that the treatment of captured US soldiers is appalling, and the blowing up and subsequent mutilation of the bodies of those contractors is just too awful for words.

I also appreciate that one cannot keep tabs on what happens miles away. But its becoming increasingly clear that the administration knew - the red cross had complained as early as last year and rummy knew months before this broke, and didnt pay attention. For an administration that now say they're in there to "save" the Iraqis from saddam's torture - well that's appalling. Shouldnt the army and any representative of the US be held to higher standards?

And Anon9, why wouldnt the Iraqis fight back? they were INVADED for God's sake. What would you do?

As to the Lynch story, I doubt she was ever harmed. She never said she was raped. In fact her first story as I recall it was that she was treated kindly. Until she got amnesia...

And the mutilated contractors - I believe they died on impact before their bodies were mutilated. Now THAT DOES NOT excuse the behaviour, it still is evil and gross and appalling,. I just must've missed the reports saying they were still alive when they were mutilated.

Rev9Volts · Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 1327

well hk how do you know "most" americans think they should be treated likd sh1t? you do not live here. no one i know believes that and i live in america. and yes there is a huge hypocracy about they way we treat prisoners and the rest of the world does. you know i am not excusing it. i say if any are sent to jail triple the time for taking pictures.

they are a bunch of stupid kids. they go from mommy to "uncle sam" (usa symbol) daddy. he feeds houses and even tells them what to wear when. what is it 140,000 plus troups and 15 idiots? still pretty good.

HKRockChick · No More Peas! Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 1513

I wouldnt presume to say "most americans". Here's what I said:

Quote:
Rev, if those people deserve to be treated like sh1t, which is what lots of folks (in the US) are saying, then why bother to "rescue" them in the first place (well that was a bit of a joke too)? Dyu realise the irony and contradiction in it all???

I said LOTS of folks - just visit message boards and yahoo messages on this story. Plenty of posts about how the "scum" deserved it, "four more for bush". Quite scary, and plenty of "excuses", well they did it to us.

All I'm saying is that if the US has declared itself the leader or "police" of the world, its own record has to be squeaky clean, especially in the matters on which it is trying to police the world. Thats just simply how leaders get credibility. That's what leadership is all about - honour and integrity.

Rev9Volts · Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 1327

sorry lots i took as the same as most.

yes it should be squeeky clean.

i also think "lots" of the problem is having a zillion contractors. the contractor would get a big bonus i am sure if they interagated a prisoner and got the information as to where osama bin laden is hiding and he got caught.

i think the intergator contractors "might" have had more to instagate the torture in the kid soldiers. mayhaps we might find out that happened and not as much blame on army except a few... stupid kids...

on a side note i did hear the woman general was not allowed to go into parts of the prison where interigations went on.

stil i knind of think she is a disgrace to "the uniform"

i can see where there are people who think the prisoners deserve it i just never met any.

i am not a rocket scientist am in my mid 40s and have a coleg degree and the people i am friends with are the same in education. i am sure there are ingorant "rednecks" who think like that. these are the types with missng teeth in the front of their mouth who are guests on the jerry springer show. dregs of sociaty.

ssdi6 · Joined: 08 May 2004 Posts: 1

a picture is worth a thousand words

MIKE BURN · Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 8:47 pm Post subject: Re:

Quote:
German Press Review: Bush and Rumsfeld in the Media Dock

German papers on Friday continue to comment on the Iraq torture scandal and the consequences it could have for the Bush administration as increasing gas prices that are plaguing Europe.

"The political damage for the USA is so immense," writes Munich's Süddeutsche Zeitung, "that even the resignation of Donald Rumsfeld won't even things out." But a political victim would send a particularly believable sign that the American government takes seriously its own moral assertions and values that it tries to hold up in Iraq. The paper suggests Donald Rumsfeld's resignation would be a sign of humility that has been sorely lacking in him for too long.

For the Lübecker Nachrichten there's much to suggest that the Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld will be the first to fall over this scandal. But, adds the paper, even President Bush can't slip away from personal responsibility. "That the President in front of Arabic television could not even bring himself to say sorry is disgraceful." "This gesture was the absolute minimum requirement," writes the daily, "because now the US which was supposed to stand for freedom and democracy, symbolizes the worst things humans are capable of, brutality, humiliation and inhumanity."

"This hasn't just happened out of the blue," writes the Aachener Nachrichten. "Why, then, has the Bush administration been so willing to hand over al Qaeda suspects captured in Afghanistan to other countries? The answer is quite simply because their more vigorous interrogation methods will see results. Or if we put it another way," writes the daily, "Because they engage in torture." U.S. President George W Bush has reacted with shock at the images of torture in Iraqi prisons by American soldiers. But adds the paper, "the question remains whether it's the torture itself that disturbs the president or the images of the torture?"

The Financial Times Deutschland writes that the accusations of torture against U.S. soldiers has grown to a barely containable foreign policy issue for the White House and notes that half a year before the presidential elections the topic of Iraq is again the central issue. But the paper doubts that the presidential candidate John Kerry will be able to utilize this scandal to his advantage. The paper believes President Bush's interview on Arabic television was designed for an American audience to show he was taking responsibility. And according to this daily there's no sign yet that Bush will lose the election on the issue of Iraq.

MIKE BURN · Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 8:49 pm Post subject: Re:

Quote:
NRKofOver

Wow, I think this topic needs a lot of balance.

NRKofOver is always so diplomatic and able to calm down "hot" threads

Rev9Volts · Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 1327

yes and none of us try to wind each other up here either do we? never because we are all :langel

Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
Jessica Lynch raped come to mind

Rick Bragg?

HKRockChick · No More Peas! Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 1513

Quote:
The paper believes President Bush's interview on Arabic television was designed for an American audience to show he was taking responsibility. And according to this daily there's no sign yet that Bush will lose the election on the issue of Iraq.

If bush wins this election (if the elections are fair), that's trully a bad indication of US mentality. It will be a very very sad day for the world. :dunno

Rev9Volts · Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 1327

usa survived lynden johnson the demoncrat who esculated vietnam to 500,000 soldiers and got over 58,000 killed. usa survived 8 years of bill and hillary, it will survive 4 more years of bush, it will survive kerry being elected if he is.

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

Quote:
it will survive 4 more years of bush, it will survive kerry being elected if he is.

The unfortunate part for most Americans is that they believe either of these guys will actually be 'better'. They both suck but fortunately neither has the ability to complete destroy what America is, only make it a bit messier.

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LarreeMP3 · Joined: 12 Apr 2002 Posts: 1935

I don't give a f^ck what we do to prisoners anymore. I cared yesterday, but after today's beheading of a civilian American hostage in retaliation for the "humiliation" of the iraqi pieces of sh^t, I think we should nuke them all off the face of the Earth. F^ck em. May they all die horrible deaths.

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