An Alternate View of Yesterday's "Victory"

[LarreeMP3]

Other countries are way worse than we could ever be, but you seem to be extra harsh towards America.

[DremTone7]

I agree that there is corruption at least to a certain extent.....IN ALL GOVERNMENTS! It's called graft, and it's been around longer than you or I. I suggest that each person worry about his/her own country and see if they can't effect change in it for the better. There is probably someone right down the street from you who could use your help right now.



Niether you nor I will change what is going on....but we can seek to understand it. And before anyone can understand, they need to stop regurgitating what the media OR government is saying, and begin to think for themselves. I arrived at my conclusions about DU by listening to ALL sides and doing research on my own and coming to my own conclusions. Listening to one side only in any argument will almost invariably lead to faulty conclusions as I believe you have done on the issue of DU.



But, I'll bite. Show me the articles on veterans of the Gulf war and diseased people, and I will tell you what I think....if you really want to know.



Your continued use of alpha particle contamination as an example shows me, however, that you haven't listened to me yet. Do you know how far an alpha particle can travel in the air? Less than an inch or two! As I said before, you'd have to eat the DU or sleep with it under your pillow for a long time to recieve ANY CONTAMINATION AT ALL! This corresponds with the US governments analysis of the effects of DU, and does not correspond to the medias claims about it. Now do you see why I have a hard time swallowing anything the media puts out? That, plus knowing they exist off of controversy tells me to take what the media says on the issue with a rather large grain of salt.



Having said that, I'll wait for you to post your links. Please, just your "best" two. I can't guarentee otherwise to have the time to give them all my attention.

[debbie mannas]

America is the leader of the world, the world's only superpower.



I expect greater things from its leaders.



A leaders should be above petty hatred, greed, and should be seen to be ABSOLUTELY fair. Otherwise why should I follow him/her? If I am in the slightest doubt as to my leader motives, then every action becomes suspect.



How can you say, well, xxxx country is doing it, so we can too?? That's not leadership, that's FOLLOWING, and when a superpower does it, it lowers everybody's standards.



Lets judge the issues I'm trying to discuss and not WHO is involved, then make a call. Lets pretend its some other country (say France) who did all those regime changes around the world, played a pivotal role in putting and keeping Saddam in power (and the Taliban for that matter), invaded Iraq, used DU and other WMDs... would it still be OK with you? I'd still say it was a crime. Even if my own country did it. And believe me, I'm a really harsh critic of my own country - I have been, right through school and college and very outspoken with it.



There are issues which need to be discussed, and if all this forum accomplishes are to bring into the open things many people do not know are happening, that's good.



At the end of the day its not you or me or your country or my country. Its the WORLD. And right and wrong is right and wrong no matter who does it.

[debbie mannas]

I've posted entire articles by researchers in two of these threads.



I will repost them later today. I've read all your articles. They all happen to agree on the dangers of DU when absorbed into the body, but dismiss the exposure levels.



later

d

[debbie mannas]

Uranium Medical Research Centre.



Posted in an entirely different thread a couple of days ago.



www.umrc.net/index.asp



From the same site, on the basics of DU:



The danger posed by DU in Weapons



-When DU weapons hit a target, a fine aerosol of uranium oxides is formed. The majority of particles (46 - 70%) are less than 10 microns.

-The aerosol-like particles (dust) are easily inhaled into the lungs. These fine particles can be spread by the wind and are readily re-suspended by modest breezes or vehicle and personnel movements. There is no existing study measuring the distance traveled by such particles. However, there is a documented instance were particles were physically captured 42 km from a test site. (Dietz 1999).

-This only proves migration beyond the specific site but does not preclude the possibility that particles can travel a great many times more kilometers. Fluid dynamic studies report that particles fewer than 5 microns can remain almost permanently suspended in the atmosphere.

-While some of the DU is soluble, the majority (in the form of other oxides) is insoluble and remains in the body for years. Once in the body, DU slowly spreads from the lungs, mainly into the lymph nodes and bone. Excretion from the body is very slow.

-The uncontrolled use and spread of uranium goes against the scientifically established conventions for handling radioactive substances and contravenes international laws. See the case made by Karen Parker at the UN that DU weaponry is illegal under existing human rights and humanitarian (armed conflict) law

-It is estimated that 300 - 800 metric tons of DU were deposited in the battlefield in Iraq and Kuwait in 1991. Dr. Doug Rokke (DU expert and former US army physicist) estimated that 120 to 480 million grams of DU would be aerosolized if 40% of the DU were burnt up.

These airborne and respirable sized particles will be radioactive for billions of years into the future.



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This is one site of a great great many. I'm quite happy to acknowledge that I am not an expert in many things, and so I rely on the expert knowledge of independent people who do study these things. I can read and understand quite well what is being said, and choose to believe them over corrupt governments who pay "experts" to spin.



From what I understand you are trying to convince me that

1) your own govt and every other expert is WRONG when they say that DU is dangerous if inhaled, ingested, or absorbed through wounds. You still think its completely safe.

2) You would be completely comfortable with allowing your own children to play with DU shells in a known DU contaminated area.

3) Despite what dozens of other experts say, we must dismiss it all as sensationalism and believe the story of the govts who use DU.



Anyway, I have made a number of posts and links which it appears you have responded to without actually reading.



bedtime now, so cheers

[LarreeMP3]

...for doing what he's doing. I would like to see those tanks drive straight to Damascus. I have no sympathy for people who want to extinguish my people. Better them than me.

[LarreeMP3]

Let's roll.

[Social Spit]

...and no proof of the fact that the world was in danger from Saddam





...How do you spell HAHAHAHAHA? Oh yah: HAHAHAHAHAHA!





Seismic: That song is really cool!

[DreamTone7]

Debbie, I think I understand what you are trying to say. My point is that it is exposure dependent.....as are all radioactive issues. We recieve radioactive exposure from the sun and the earth every day. A certain amount of exposure is not harmfull.



Along with the amount of exposure is the length of time exposed. A brief exposure to a highly radioactive source will yield nothing....while a two week exposure could be enough to kill you. So, it depends on 1) the radioactive levels exposed to, and 2) the length of time exposed.



As I pointed out, we are continually exposed throughout our life to a low level of radioactivity. This is known as background radiation, and is natural in origin. What I am trying to say is that unless you ingest a sizeable peice of DU, or inhale a highly concentrated amount for a fairly long period of time, there will be no effect. Long term exposure effects do not exhibit themselves early, either. Before the advent of alternative materials, watch makers used to paint the hands of the watches (so they would glow in the dark) with radioactive Radium. In order to ensure a nice job, the painters would lick the tip of the paintbrush (which still had traces of Radium in it) so it would form a nice point. 40 years later these workers began comming down with liver cancer. My point is that with the levels of exposure incurred over a relatively short period of time during the Gulf War, I don't believe that it is possible to conclude that any of the problems incurred by our veterans after only 12 years is a possible result of exposure to DU. Your article, as posted, suggests that the veterans are/were not properly tested for levels of DU. Does this automatically draw the conclusion that DU is the cause of their problems? Based on what I have said in this post, and knowing about some of the things that went on in the Gulf War (including exposure to certain amounts of nerve gas and other agents in many cases), I don't believe that DU is the likely cause of many, if any of the problems veterans are having. If DU is the cause, how come we don't have a lot of other cases similar to these in peace-time? We use this ammo in training exercises.....how come nobody has come down with problems before? As stated in one of your previous posts, the men inside the tanks firing this ammo would be more heavily exposed to airborn DU than anyone else......in view of these facts, I seriously doubt there are any civilians at risk in Iraq.......unless, of course, somebody picks up a peice of DU and eats it!



I would keep an eye on the crew-members of tanks that fired this ammo over the next 40 years to be certain of this. But in view of the evidence so far, it is extremely unlikely that DU has been the cause of any kind of problem. (The exception would be, once again, someone who picked up and ate a peice of it.)



I would simply tell my kids not to eat rocks and wash their hands before eating. Prudent, regardless of where you live or what you're exposed to.



Have a pleasant day.

[DreamTone7]

Debbie, FWIW, I WOULD like to see a study on the long term effects of mild exposure to nerve gas. It is my personal belief that that study would yield much more pertinent results in terms of diagnosis of the problems the veterans of the Gulf War have incurred.



I think many of these places that do these kind of studies are more out to find trouble with anything that has the word "Uranium" attatched to it. I believe that they are just looking in the wrong area......a hidden agenda or preconceived notion is often a bigger part of the trouble, when looking for the truth, than anything else.

[debbie mannas]

Whats with this "your" people, "my" people?? Do you really think that way?

[debbie mannas]

All the proof that the US had to offer was proven to be fabricated. There was no justification for this war.



There is more justification to ban the use of DU.



Everyone acknowledges that it is dangerous if exposure levels are high. There are plenty of independent studies done on people exposed to DU. However, Govts that use it say they do not have studies on how high the exposure levels can get.



Well in that case, they ABSOLUTELY should not be using it. Its like selling drugs to unsuspecting people without rigorous testing/FDA approval.



For a world leader to be behind this is a CRIME.



SHAME.

[DreamTone7]

Based on what I have said in my posts, I believe there is no more evidence to implicate DU as a cause of any kind injury or harm (except to whom it's fired at...the resulting explosion), than there is dishwashing liquid. This is based on a scientific understanding of the elements involved regarding exposure to radioactive elements. Radioactivity is radioactivity (allowing for the three major kinds; alpha, beta, and gamma) regardless of its source. DU is less radioactive than natural Uranium, which I have handled my self.



This whole thing reminds me of the big media blow-up over saccarin (the low calorie sugar substitute). This is found in todays "Sweet & Low" (the pink stuff). Back in the 70's, the media was in an upraor over this stuff because it had been proven to cause cancer in laboratory animals. It was later revealed that they pumped the animals with an amount equivalent to 40 pounds a day for a human! It was also proven that when you pump an equivalent amount of sugar into the lab animals that they came down with cancer twice as fast! All media hype.

[LarreeMP3]

Whats with this "your" people, "my" people?? Do you really think that way?



******************************************************



Debbie. It is a known fact that most of the Arab world does not accept Israel's right to exist. It is a known fact that most Arabs want to see all Jews dead.



So the answer to your question is "yes." I do think this way when I think of the Arab world.

Edited by: LarreeMP3 at: 4/16/03 2:02:22 pm

[debbie mannas]

no matter what research links I post you do not read them fully and choose to believe what you want to believe. You also refuse to do a similar search for yourself or review the issue with any degree of objectivity.







Well I choose to believe the scientists.



And there has been NO press coverage on DU in recent years (that I know of), so I have no idea what you're talking about.