'CIA prisons:' EU warns members

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

BTW Mike, I don't see anywhere in the article where the UK has demanded anything of anybody outside of their own country. Shoddy reporting on your part again? :eyebrow

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bitwhys · Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 649

Quote:
but I also don't think it would be necessary (as Mullin suggests) to have other countries do the "torturing"

you don't, eh?

check out section 308 of the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2001 and let's just wait for the list of countries to roll in, shall we? :count

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

"Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but I also don't think it would be necessary (as Mullin suggests) to have other countries do the "torturing"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you don't, eh?

check out section 308 of the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2001 and let's just wait for the list of countries to roll in, shall we?"

Taken out of context from my original post, bitwhys. Shame on you...that was cheap.

bitwhys · Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 649

you didn't think it would be necessary to outsource.

now you know why it would.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

Allow me to remove the parenthecized portion of my phrase for (as the term is used in the military) "possible penetration".

"...but I also don't think it would be necessary to have other countries do the "torturing" if the US was doing it."

So you see, my point is that if you accuse the US of "torturing" (using the term loosely), why would you also accuse other countries of "torturing" as well? As I said, Mullin makes no sense.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

In a criminal sense, knowingly allowing illegal activity to occur is the same as doing it yourself, so if the CIA and the USA are trying to do an end-around by saying 'we didn't torture anyone' but knowingly allowed foreigners to torture for them, then they are just as guilty. So it is possible that the US is involved in torture even if they aren't the ones directly pushing the electroshock button and that can also mean that other nations are involved in torturing as well.

See, it's not that hard to understand.

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DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

NRK - "...knowingly allowing illegal activity to occur is the same as doing it yourself..."

The legality and burden of responsibility in this issue is up to the government of the country(s) in question to decide...not you or me, or the EU. But it goes back, again, to the gun-maker vs the trigger-puller arguement. Who is responsible? In my book, the trigger-puller is. This, of course, assumes that anything is going on at all...an assumption I'm not quite prepared to make as quickly as some around here. As I mentioned before, some are not very good at practicing what they preach. Guilty 'til proven innocent, anyone?

bitwhys · Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 649

Quote:
So you see, my point is that if you accuse the US of "torturing" (using the term loosely), why would you also accuse other countries of "torturing" as well? As I said, Mullin makes no sense.

he makes perfect sense because Homeland Security did it already with Syria. with the CIA doing the hand-off no one is culpable.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

It's either/or...not both.

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bitwhys · Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 649

its not either/or so bullshit. this is the real world we're talking about not some manechean parlour trick.

and we'll never know the details because it would require a breach of the law to justify an investigation.

funny how that works out.

nice country. I'm anxious to see who's on their xmas list.

Edited by: bitwhys at: 12/1/05 14:27

NRKofOver · Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 505

I wonder DT, what do you make of the administration asking that the CIA be exempt from any US law banning torture on any detainees in American custody?

It seems to me that working so hard for that exemption means that you support torture by the CIA if necessary.

Is that something you agree with?

I don't know exactly what our official policy is on the use of unorthodox methods of interrogation and general prisoner treatment, but the reality is that we don't have to jump to conclusions to know that US personnel (both civilian and military) have most assuredly crossed the line of appropriate and humane behavior of current prisoners in US custody.

Whether or not this has moved into secret concentration camps (and I don't want anyone to sugarcoat the concept of us having secret holding places for prisoners, it's the same as a concentration camp or a gulag or Siberia) we don't know at this point. But if there are any secret holding facilities in the world run/utilized by the CIA or the military or any other branch of the US government, the people responsible for allowing it should be tried, convicted and thrown in legitimate jails for the rest of their natural lives. It's reprehensible and a complete disregard for everything that America stands for and anyone who attempts to justify such behavior is just as guilty as those who wish to piss upon the Constitution and the ideals and values that make America worth living in. If there is one ounce of truth to this, this entire administration should be held on criminal charges, and if no one in this country will prosecute them, then they should be tried for war crimes by an international tribunal. It is morally bankrupt and evil.

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Galmin · The King has spoken! Joined: 30 Dec 2001 Posts: 1711

Quote:
Steinmeier, however, asked a direct question to the US Secretary of State.

Yesterday British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw (acting officially on behalf of the European Union) sent Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice a letter requesting clarification about secret flights and prisons throughout Europe.

Source: The British Embassy, Washington DC.

Edited by: Galmin at: 12/1/05 11:44

MIKE BURN

Quote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4486198.stm

Straw quizzes US on 'CIA flights'

The foreign secretary has written to Washington over claims that the CIA has used EU airports to move suspects to other countries for torture.

Jack Straw said the letter "expressed concern" on behalf of all EU countries and he was waiting for a response.

He spoke after human rights group Liberty urged police to probe allegations that the flights called at British airports.

The US government has said its laws have not been broken.

But it has refused to confirm or deny the existence of "secret prisons" in third countries.

Liberty has called for action within 14 days - or, it has said, it will go to court claiming police aided and abetted kidnap and torture.

The Guardian in September reported claims that at least 210 CIA flights had landed in the UK since the 11 September 2001 attacks on the US.

It is alleged at least 12 airports in England and Scotland have been used, with the busiest being Prestwick in Ayrshire where CIA aircraft landed more than 75 times.

bitwhys · Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 649

Quote:
The US government has said its laws have not been broken.

ladies and gentlemen we have a bingo

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

bitwhys - "ladies and gentlemen we have a bingo"

No we don't. We won't have one of those until the question of the laws in OTHER countries is answered (not a question for us to decide the answer to)...as well as determination being made that anything went on to begin with.

"Guilty 'til proven innocent" attitudes duly noted.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...