I am sick of all the anti-American crap I am reading.

[Seismic Anamoly]

He Loves His People So Very Much....



Let's all run to his side and give him a Big Hugg....Tinky Winky would be so proud of you....



And Larree, if myself and people like me had anything whatsoever to do with it, you would Never Be Forgotten....my 82 year-old Father had 8 brothers; one died at Anzio, another on Utah Beach...no, you won't be forgotten...

Edited by: Seismic Anamoly at: 2/14/03 12:32:52 am

[LarreeMP3]

...and force the rest of us to convert to Islam.



Death before dishonor. Drugs before lunch. Let's roll.

[PANick11]

siesmic..



no one has spoken in support of Saddam here or even suggested that he "loves his people"...



Petty violent dictators are not loved by any clear thinking person...

your oversimplification of world events is rediculous.

I dispise Saddam, And I'm not so stupid as to imagine that were all just going to Hug and get over it...

People are going to die....lots of people....



We're being blackmailed By North Korea and the lives of the people of Tokyo and South Korea and Many others hang in the balance...





Were being blackmailed By Al Quiada and the lives of any randomly selected People may hang in the Balance.







We have a state department and a Justice Department and a defense department at odds with each other and all are so mired in scandal that no clear objective can be discerned..



We have an ignored situation In Iraq that has become quite dangerous..(Though Perhaps not so dangerous as MANY other situations)





We have people like you who blindly support the new unilateralism even though this position is at odds with the majority here and abroad and threatens to undermine democracy all over the world....unfortunately the New unilateralist minority are running the Military



we have an utter disintigration of Americas founding principles being carried out in the name of National Security



This is the very edge of oblivion....all of our hopes for humanity hang in the balance...







ever read this?

This is the hope of all humanity..This is the manifesto of any true patriot and should be the aim of any foreign policy this country exercises..or any member nation for that matter..

It's admitedly an Ideal...But it's clear enough to see what actions are in support of this Ideal and what actions undermine it.



without this we are lost......

------------------------------------------------------



On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."

PREAMBLE

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,



Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the commonpeople,



Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,



Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,



Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,



Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,



Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,



Now, Therefore,



THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY



proclaims



THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.



Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.



Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.



Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.



Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.



Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.



Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.



Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.



Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.



Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.



Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.



Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.





Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.



Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.





Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.





Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.





Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.



(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.





Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.





Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.



Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.



Article 20.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.





Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right to equal access to public service in his country.



(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.





Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.



Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.



(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.



(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.





Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.



Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.





Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.



(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.





Article 27.

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.





Article 28.

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.



Article 29.

(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.



(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.





Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

-------------------------------------------------------





PANick

Edited by: PANick11 at: 2/13/03 10:48:49 pm

[LarreeMP3]

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Most of the nations in the UN are in direct violation of Article 1.

[LarreeMP3]

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Gosh... Even more UN nations are in direct violation of Article 2!

[PANick11]

yep....



[b]PANick[/b]

[Seismic Anamoly]

Why, PANick....I had no idea you cared....



Your "PissAnt" Buddy

[RonOnGuitar]

Hiya Larree -



I don't know that your hypothetical question is needed, just the history as it enfolded makes the same points as you're positing for here & now. That is, past reality in itself speaks very clearly, sans any speculation.



Most the world wanted to talk itself into believing that Hitler & Nazi Germany posed no threat to anybody. Even in America people laughed that the Nazis wanted a "living room" (Lebensraum).



In that era, the League Of Nations - the "first UN" - gained a well-earned reputation as timid and completely ineffective, thus consigning itself to the "Permanently Irrelevant Bin".



Concerned nations naively went to Hitler looking to be assured that he wasn't that bad of a guy and had no ill intentions. This culminated in what has come to be known as the "Munich Appeasement".



After meeting with Hitler, Neville Chamberlain - the nice but tres gullible Prime Minister Of Great Britain declared that world peace had been assured. He advised the Brits that since this was the case they should, "Go home and get a nice quiet sleep". This ill-advised phrase is reflected in the title of both Churchill's "While England Slept" and JFKs "Why England Slept".



Obviously, during that era, anti-Semitism was very much on the rise, culminating in what would be come to know as the "Holocaust". (Sadly, there has been an increasingly alarming return to the madness of anti-Semitism in recent years, most notably in Europe.)



When you add these items up - along with many other considerations - Larree, I think the most effective point that you can make here is not in "what if this had happened" scenerios. Rather, the old saw that notes "those who do not learn from the past are comdemned to repeat it" proves itself to be as sharp a cutting tool as ever.



Anywhooo, just the way I'd argue your point - from the lessons of history as it happened rather than from hypotheticals.



--ron--

[LarreeMP3]

Right on, Ron. Thank you.

[RonOnGuitar]

Hiya Larree -



I believe Chris mentioned a BB that's better suited for spitballing on political/world issues? Perhaps she would like to add the link here in this thread to serve to direct those inclined to the best area to have at it



I'm really not much into it very much, but I think it's good that folks debate the important issues and concepts in the proper setting. The denizens hereabouts are bright and articulate peeps and hopefully we learn something or other from folks with even the most diametrically opposed opinions. If nothing else, it's interesting to learn what makes their thinking "tick".



--ron--

[bbchris]

This thread has exploded! I have to say that PANick & RON are posting the most thought-provoking and interesting comments. Hats off to you guys.



PANick - again you amaze me with your clear unbiased writings.



LARREE - I think it's great to love your people and your countries. I think its even more outstanding to love all the people of the world and not side with one or the other. It takes great men & great love to achieve that. This is something I'm probably guilty of too.



I'm so proud at times of being CHinese AND English and at other times appalled, ashamed and embarrassed by both of these cultures... Being part of two cultures has made me realise neither is better or more important or superior. People do their best. Some best are better than others. No culture/race/nationality is superior to another. The vast majority of the World's population just wants a safe world to live in, to bring children up in and they put their hopes into their Governments, the UN and other organisations.



We are in charge of our actions. If we speak & act as if we hate others for being a different race, why are we surprised to find there is hate for ourselves? Peace & Love can change the world. We DON'T have to agree to war. Fighting fire with fire was never a good recommendation.



There is a group of us in Hong Kong who are finding out about the possibility of adopting orphaned Iraqi children (as well as abandoned Chinese girls plus others) as the children of the world really are our future. (I'm sorry to quote Whitney!)

|Blah Blah|Talk Soup|Thinking Out Loud|thewireweb|

[Electrodynamics]

Harald Schmidt Show [Comedy] yesterday.



"The Americans say that we'd still be a socialistic Russian republic without 'em. True. But without the Europeans they'd still be Indians."

---

homepage | mp3.com | contact@electrodynamics.de

[MIKE BURN]

Quote:

---

Let the Iraqi child get in line behind the 6,000,000 Jews hitler killed.

---

I may remind for the fact, that hundredthousands of jews

had been killed in Poland and MILLIONS in RUSSIA as well.



To reduce guilt of the Holocaust to the Germans and to the

Austrian AH alone, is a krass simplification of the problem.

MIKE

[Electrodynamics]

Let's see what the days brings, looking forward to Blix report in 20min.

---

homepage | mp3.com | contact@electrodynamics.de

[LarreeMP3]

"To reduce guilt of the Holocaust to the Germans and to the

Austrian AH alone, is a krass simplification of the problem."

Nothing simple about marching 6,000,000 of my people off to the ovens.